There was some discussion (in part by myself, and in part by others) about how the
new enchments will work in regards to these wizardry and enchantment effects.

Here is how it will work :

Each time you put a tag into a Bag of Holding or Pocket Space,
you will actviate / use one "duration".

As per the write-up in the rules :
The Wizardry only lasts for until you sleep.
Pretty much no question there. And yes - it says "until you sleep."
That means - you take a nap mid-day, it's gone.
But, it is a wizardry effect & can be recast as needed - so no issues.

However : If you take a sleep effect, your Pocket space ends and any tags
held in it will be lost ... SO, be careful ... And, technically, you should make
sure to empty your Pocket Space before going to sleep, or you lose the tags ...


Under the new enchantment rules, you get as many as 3 uses -
which echoes the original write-up of the enchantment "Bag of Holding / Inspiration of the Muses",
which says it lasts for 1 to 3 events based upon the quality of the herbal component.

The write-up for the Inspiration of the Muses specifically states "viable for a number of sessions",
as opposed to the Wizardry which says "until you sleep."

The enchantment of Inspiration of the Muses will not create added castings as per the
new enchantment rules, but will still gain the durations as per the original write-up.
(this echoes the changes we made to the system overall ...)

-Chris

I did not find anywhere in the rules that defines any ill effect of tags in a pocket space or Bag of Holding when the extra-dimensional space is no longer active.

I feel that players are being penalized for using the pocket space to carry around their tags without phys reps using the if you fall asleep, the tags in the pocket space are gone. WHY?!?!?!?

Isn't it far more reasonable that they 'pop' out of the space and are available for anyone else to pick up and carry?

Also I found the following definition for Bag of Holding which is very different from your clarification:
The pouch will remain viable for a number of sessions dependent upon the quality of the herbal component used: one session (the current one) for Apprentice, two for Journeyman, three for Master.

This means that this ONE enchantment follows rules very different from ALL other enchantments.
I am not liking this from a consistency standpoint.

Alright then ...

First : No Sleep Effect in Game.
Answer : Wrong. The mardrom used the call of By my Voice, Sleep by Will in the Tavern.
Everyone role played the effect perfectly. The list of effects and calls in the rules is not "the end" of the list,
rather it is the beginning. There may be no way for the PC's to grant a sleep effect - which I guess I understand
from the hard-core Accelerant outlook. However, I believe that we are capable of "role playing" ...
So, please be aware that you <may> encounter a sleep effect in game ...

Second : Use of the assorted bag of holding effects
Answer : Some clarifications ...

The wizardry spell does not actually call for a "bag", it simply gives you the ability to carry tags without reps.
So, if you are using the Wizardry - no bag is needed, you can simply carry the tags.

The Enchantment calls for a physical bag, which can be taken from you if you are unconcious.
If using the enchantment version, you must have the tags in a bag.

I expect that people will turn over any active "Bags of Holding" if they are searched ..

A correct observation that there is no actual definition of what happens to items when one of these effects goes away.
So be it. I will define that right here. When the wizardry ends, you lose the connection to the extra-dimensional space
where the <items> are begin held. The items are lost into another dimension. I will give the benefit of the doubt -
anytime a player goes to sleep, or takes a nap, you will have the foresight to recall you items from a pocket space.

With the Bag of Holding, the items are stored within an extra-dimensional space <on Asylum>.
If for some reason the Bag goes away - the items will be dumped out on Asylum, or where ever you are when the Bag ends.

Wizardry : Items are held in an extra dimensional space. This area has no phys-rep, and is not <on> the same dimension as the player. Items are lost.
Enchantment : Items are in a holder (the bag) which is <on> the same dimension as the player. Hence, items are recoverable.

As far as the Enchantment version goes -

Alright - we'll be consistant. You will get castings equal to the current, upgraded enchantment rules.
(1,2,3 or 2 with 1 extra event duration). Each casting will last equal to the quality of the alchemical component used.

Benefits :

Wizardry version - Recastable, may not be found by a search (no rep to find).
Enchantment version - Can be passed to others, longer duration.

Drawbacks :

Wizardry version - while items cannot be taken by search, they could be lost by unplanned "sleep"
Enchantment version - items cannot be lost when duration ends, but can be taken if rendered unconcious / incapacitated.

Lastly -
1 : The rules say that you can put tags into the bags. If there is no tag, then the item will not be able to go into the bag.
2 : To access any item within a pocket space, or bag of holding, you need to spend 1 minute "at rest",
reflecting the effort to rummage around in the extra-dimensional space by "feel", trying to locate the particular item you want.

One other thing chris if i can get clarified sine i got grief at check in last fall.

Things like far farms produce tagas and bags of holding? it has a tag and a physrep so i dont see any reason why it cant be used (is that a good interpretation?), so does each tag take uo one duration? If so can we get the herbal componebnt down to a common one?

ok cool my bad

Bag of holding will only ever (under normal circumstances) age by 1 duration per event.
You use a sword or gun over and over at an event - but it only ages 1 event.
We have had occasions where people have used up extra duration on things
(using an ammo pack to create a small explosion - costing extra durations off the tag)

But again - most items only ever age 1 event at a time.

If there is a tag and a phys-rep, bag of holding or pocket space allows you to take the tag, and leave the rep.
If you do not have a tag, you must take the rep.


-Chris

Dwayne, I disagree.
No where does Chris indicate that Recasting the Pocket Space will reallow access to the tags that were lost in the Pocket Space.
In fact he says clearly they are lost, whereas he clearly states that the contents of Bag of Holding are recoverable.
Lost does not equal recoverable in this case.

I know this whole thread has generated a lot of questions and I want to ensure that all players are using the rules in the same way.

Chris?

Cathy

Ok, once again ... From my post above :

"A correct observation that there is no actual definition of what happens to items when one of these effects goes away.
So be it. I will define that right here. When the wizardry ends, you lose the connection to the extra-dimensional space
where the <items> are begin held. The items are lost into another dimension. I will give the benefit of the doubt -
anytime a player goes to sleep, or takes a nap, you will have the foresight to recall you items from a pocket space."

As from my last clarification post : If you go to sleep intentionally - I credit you with being smart enough to recall
any items you have stored in a pocket space.

As far as things not being lost in a pocket space : one last time - No.

Everything we do has a balance. A pro and a con.

Pocket space is a wizardry, can be cast at will, items cannot be found via a search.
If there is no drawback - then this becomes a perfect hiding spot. I am not good with that.
In effect, anyone who learns this wizardry will never lose any tagged item they claim to hide in it.
Talk about overpowered skill.

Enchantment Bag of Holding, can be given to others, items are not lost if it goes away, but it can be found via a search (if uncon.)
This has good and bad.

So, I will state one last time :

Wizardry : Items are held in an extra dimensional space. This area has no phys-rep, and is not <on> the same dimension as the player. Items are lost.
Enchantment : Items are in a holder (the bag) which is <on> the same dimension as the player. Hence, items are recoverable.


Benefits :

Wizardry version - Recastable, may not be found by a search (no rep to find).
Enchantment version - Can be passed to others, longer duration.

Drawbacks :

Wizardry version - while items cannot be taken by search, they could be lost by unplanned "sleep"
Enchantment version - items cannot be lost when duration ends, but can be taken if rendered unconcious / incapacitated.


Lastly -
1 : The rules say that you can put tags into the bags. If there is no tag, then the item will not be able to go into the bag.
2 : To access any item within a pocket space, or bag of holding, you need to spend 1 minute "at rest",
reflecting the effort to rummage around in the extra-dimensional space by "feel", trying to locate the particular item you want.
3 : As far as the Enchantment version goes - You will get castings equal to the current, upgraded enchantment rules.
(1,2,3 or 2 with 1 extra event duration). Each casting will last equal to the quality of the alchemical component used.

This is perhaps a side issue on this thread, but I think it's a pretty important one.

Chris, if the effect of 'Sleep' as you want to use it is the same as 'Stun', why can't the effect be 'Stun'? Why have a totally separate, completely non-Accelerant effect call?

I don't want to be a hardass or a jerk, and I really like the flexibility we use on things like a low-voiced obvious clarification from an NPC hooking a mod being understood by PCs to not be something the NPC is actually saying In Game -- but the one major point of being part of the Accelerant game family is that anyone who knows the core effects will know how to take any effect call they are hit with.

If you want to change the Bag of Holding or Pocket Space skills to say that any Stun effect will end them (and/or becoming unconscious through any means will end them, including damage, but that seems ridiculously harsh), as well as saying that actually sleeping will do so, please just change the skill.

If you want to differentiate between a Stun that's a Sleep effect vs a Stun that's not a Sleep effect, why not use a 'Stun by Sleep' call? (Hell, in Aralis I have what is explicitly a Sleep spell -- and the effect is 'Stun by Sleep'.) If you want to make sure that Psionic resists/cures can cure it, update the two Psi skills in question to cure any effect by Will, Psi, or Sleep.

There are ways to implement this effect in our rules without explicitly violating the core Accelerant rules by making up effects not defined in Accelerant and expecting people (including possibly weekend stuff who play other larps) to guess how to play them. It's not necessarily obvious. (Does a minute of shaking wake someone up? What about a slap in the face?)

Thanks.
Kendra