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stableyr Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 2:58:44 PM
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I'm trying to understand how production works, but I don't have access to a rule book...

Lets say I get the rights to use a mine to get ore. Do I use pool points to gather the ore or does it simply diminish the mine's remaining available resources?

I somehow get common ore out of the mine. Can I refine it only into one specific thing based on the type of mine it came from, or can I refine it into anything common (such as copper, tin, bronze)?

Are some ore sources better than others? Do some rich ores take fewer units to make into a refined metal while some poor ores take more than normal amounts to get 1 unit of refined metal?

I'm really strong and want a long sword that will allow me to do the biggest called damage without breaking.

I want to hire someone to get the raw materials that will be refined into coal and iron.
I want to hire someone to refine the coal ore and iron ore into coal and iron.
I want to hire someone to make the coal and iron into steal.
I want to hire someone to make the steal into a sword.

I'm going to hire only people who have a ranking of Master in their field.
Walk me through each step of the process explaining how many pool points each Master level person needs to use to complete each step.


I want to buy preserved food. Is this a three step process?
Hunt the game/catch the fish.
Cook the food.
Preserve the food.

Thanks,
Richard

Varius Offline
#2 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 3:37:11 PM

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OOO. A challenge! Thank you for these questions, Richard. Dave, Mario, Mick, feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes.

I'm going to speak in general terms first and then get into specifics.

First, generally speaking, a Mine has a set number of Mining Source Units in it. Mining Source Units (shorthanded here as mSU) are referred to as "Ore" In Game. Once the mSU are used, they go poof, gone. Rarely do they grow back (though there are ways to force this to happen).

mSU can be refined into any Mining material based on the miner's skills. Those skills are "Base Metals Miner," "Minerals Miner," "Noble Metals Miner" and "Gem Miner."

A Refiner refines Raw Materials into Refined Materials. A Smith/Craftsman/Artisan fashions these Refined Materials into widgets; a finished product.

The very basic steps are:

1 Acquire the Raw Material (minimal skill required -- usually simply a single pt in the appropriate pool)
2 Refine the Raw Material into a Refined Material (requires the expenditure of Production Pool Points)
3 Smith, Craft or Artifice the Refined Material into a Finished Product (requires only Refined Materials and time -- no pts expended)

4 Admire the kewl craftiness of it all

That's it. Three basic steps. Acquire, Refine, Make. Boom, you're done.

Now, there are many different skills that will get you from Step 1 to 2 to 3. You asked about Mining, specifically about Steel, which is a Base Metal, so, I'll focus in on that.

What we call 'Ore' In Game as our characters is known OOG as 'Mining Source Units' (shorthanded here as 'mSU').

Base Metal Miners can refine this ore/mSU into a few different things: Steel, Iron, Lead, Bronze or Copper (more on Tin later). Now, one of the first things you might ask is "but Steel and Bronze are alloys made of two or more other substances, how does that work?" Simply put: that's just the way it is and we live with it. You can go directly from mSU to Steel or directly from mSU to Bronze with no steps in between. Call it a quirk of this world.

Each miner has Mining Production Pool Points (shorthanded here as mPPP). Each mPPP 'burned' allows the refining of five mSU. (We'll use Steel as the example because it makes for easier math.)

The book lists Steel as having a Production Cost of 5. That means that Steel takes 5 mSU to make. IG, you are taking Rocks and turning them into Steel. (it's semi-hemi-quasi-magical as ore is universal and can be refined into anything 'mining' related -- logical? no. easier to deal with logistically? yep.)

1 unit of Steel takes 5 mSU to make. That means that the miner uses one of his mPPP to turn 5 mSU into 1 Steel. Pretty simple. Extrapolating that out, he can turn 20 mSU into 4 Steel by using 4 of his mPPP. This is an Apprentice Base Metals Miner. (I did the red thing on purpose to link the two statements -- 'cause you can't see me pointing at the screen while I type!)

When the Apprentice gets better at Refining he becomes a Journeyman (that means he spent more points on the skill). A Journeyman can get the same Unit of Steel out of fewer mSU. Instead of refining at a 100% rate (full Production Cost) he can do it at a 75% rate. That means to get the same 4 units of Steel, the Journeyman only needs 15 mSU and need only spend 3 mPPP. Such a deal!

Things get only better when you are a Master! Masters refine at a 50% rate! That means to get the same 4 units of Steel, the Master only needs 10 mSU and need only spend 2 mPPP. Great deal!

Okay, so now we know how to go from 'Ore' (mSU) to Steel. What are you gonna do with it?

Well, whether you refine it yourself or simply buy it from others, you'll need 7 Steel to make a Steel Longsword. You'll also need 1 Wood and 1 Leather. You hand those to the Bladesmith and (with the help of his trusty assistant Wood/Bonesmith) they Smith those suckers together in a jiffy and, Voila! Spankin' new Shiny Sword! Now if you, yourself are the Bladesmith, you need to know the 'recipes' for all the things that you can make with the skill. Those recipes are available either in the book here, or on site at monster camp for NPCs or in the Merchant's Guild for PCs... many PCs (like Mario and I) have printed lists we are more than willing to share. In fact I'll bring a condensed list to the next game just for you, k?

Everything that can be made has a tag and all of that thing's stats are listed on that tag. The tag lists such things as what it is made of, how long it will last, What its max damage is (if a weapon), how much protection it provides (if armor), any special 'Master Bonuses' it may have, etc... I'll be glad to go over them with you at the next event if you like.

You specifically asked about going from Raw Ore to Shiny New Sword, so here are the steps:

First, Here is the Recipe:

Long Sword (up to 46", Sword)
Base Maximum Called Damage: 3
Primary Material: 7 Bronze (+0), Iron (+1), or Steel (+2)
Secondary Materials: 1 Wood/Bone & 1 Leather
Primary Skill: Bladesmith
Secondary Skill: Wood/Bonesmith
Master Bonus: Parry, Disarm, Mighty

(What the hell does all that mean?! Line by line it means that a Longsword can be up to 46" long and is in the 'sword' category. The most damage that can be done with a basic longsword is 3-Damage. It takes either 7 Bronze or 7 Iron or 7 Steel to make. If it is made of Bronze, you add 0 to the damage limit and it remains 3. If it is made of Iron, you add 1 to the damage limit and it becomes 4. If it is made of Steel, you add 2 to the damage limit and it becomes 5. It also takes 1 Wood/Bone (in this case either could be used) and one Leather to make. To make a longsword also requires the skill Wood/Bonesmith (either in another character working with the Bladesmith or the Bladesmith themself can have the skill). Longswords can have a Bonus of -1 Stamina to use when using the skills Parry or Disarm or their damage limit can go one more higher with the 'Mighty' Bonus (however you cannot give it the 'Mighty' Bonus if it is made of Steel, bummer.))

Step by step:

1 Acquire the Raw Materials (Mining Source Units AKA mSU AKA 'Ore')
. . . . . . a. As a miner you are probably better off just purchasing the Wood and Leather for cheap (approx 2 guilda)
2 Refine the Ore into Steel (expending mPPP in the process)
3 Smith the Steel, Wood & Leather into a Longsword (requires only Refined Materials an time -- no pts expended)

4 Swing your shiny new Sah-Word around making 'ching-ching' noises! Kewl!

You asked about buying preserved food. That's a one step process. Trade money to someone who has some. Boom, done.

But I think you want to know how to go from dead animal to canned meat or uprooted taters to canned veggies, so here are the steps:

1 Harvest the Raw Hunt/Farm SU (usually a tag on a physrep)
2 Refine the H/F SU (similar process as described above)
3 Cook it into "Preserved Rations."

4 Smell the sweet scent of Bovril!

Notice a pattern? Almost everything has three steps:

1 Get the Raw stuff
2 Refine the Raw stuff
3 Make the Refined stuff into something useful.

4 add a kewl rejoicing step to make it fun!

You also asked about how much it would cost to hire someone to do each step. I'll not publish those rates here as they are a bit different from character to character and situation to situation, but I'll be happy to discuss them with you in person either IG or OOG if you like.

I hope I answered many of your questions. I know I left some things out such as using Iron and Coal to make Steel and how Silver can replace Bronze or what's up with Tin and all that, but those are kind of advanced idea. If you want to know more about them just ask and I'll post more, but you really should get the above down first.

There are also other uses for Production Pool Points that don't involve Refining, but those too can be saved for a later discussion.


Dwayne
Assume no malice.
Assume no altruism.
Salvadore Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 4:43:43 PM
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its actually alot simpler then your steps! I'll let dwayne talk about it...
Salvadore Diaz
C.E.O Sweet Rock Mining Consortium
Merchant Guildmaster
Asylum Colony
Master Bladesmith, founder, Wood/bonesmith, Solutio, Conjuctio
Fine alchemy, weapons and firearms for sale. No job is too small, no fee too big!
stableyr Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 4:50:57 PM
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I'm glad to hear it!
ArthurMacBride Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 5:17:59 PM

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General rules question re: the sword

Am I correct in that Journeyman weapons have a -1 Stamina for all skills, and thus the Master bonus of parry / disarm would be at an additional -1 for a total of -2?
Omega 377th Reef Marines
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Varius Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 5:25:19 PM

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Rob wrote:
General rules question re: the sword

Am I correct in that Journeyman weapons have a -1 Stamina for all skills, and thus the Master bonus of parry / disarm would be at an additional -1 for a total of -2?



You are correct, Rob. I was saving that tid-bit for later in the discussion.


Dwayne
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Assume no altruism.
stableyr Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 5:50:53 PM
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Cool, I think I followed most of what you've written.

I'm not sure about getting the mSU out of the mine. I'm just making up numbers, but say the mine has 100 mSU. How much of that can I remove from the mine with 1 mPPP and does it matter how good I am as a miner?

The other thing that I'm not sure of is that if I'm an Apprentice base metal miner, a Journeyman noble metal miner and a Master Gem miner, then I can take X units of mSU (ore) from the mine and then refine the mSU into a base metal (steel, iron, bronze, copper) or I could refine it into a noble metal (I assume gold, silver) or I could refine it into gemstones?

So each chunk of ore has gems, iron, coal, copper, tin, gold and silver potential inside it, and I choose to bring any of them out as a refined material ready to be crafted into something useful?

Thanks again for the detailed responses!
Varius Offline
#8 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 6:03:00 PM

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Richard wrote:
I'm not sure about getting the mSU out of the mine. I'm just making up numbers, but say the mine has 100 mSU. How much of that can I remove from the mine with 1 mPPP and does it matter how good I am as a miner?


As much as you want and no it does not matter. Heck you don't even need the skill, just the 1 mPPP. AND you don't even expend that mPPP, you just have to have it! Coolness, huh?

And, yes, the lump of ore is potentially anything that any miner can make. A Base Metals Miner could turn 5 mSU into one Steel or a Nobel Metals Miner could turn that exact same mSU into 1 Gold. But once it is done, it cannot be undone.

This might be a good point to bring up the fact that some mines may be limited in what their mSU can be used for. For example, you might find that the mSU in the new mine you've discovered can only be used for Gold! You found a Gold Mine! This is very rare though and I haven't seen it actually happen... yet.

Dwayne
Assume no malice.
Assume no altruism.
Salvadore Offline
#9 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 8:15:39 PM
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Ok Dwayne was remiss to mention. There are 2 types of SU in a mine. Available and potential. Available is readily usable you can simply put it in your bank and refine away. Potential is a bit trickier. Potential SU can be converted to Available Su at a rate of 2psu per mining pool point. There are of course items out there that boost the effectiveness of this process.
Salvadore Diaz
C.E.O Sweet Rock Mining Consortium
Merchant Guildmaster
Asylum Colony
Master Bladesmith, founder, Wood/bonesmith, Solutio, Conjuctio
Fine alchemy, weapons and firearms for sale. No job is too small, no fee too big!
Jesus Rodriguez Offline
#10 Posted : Friday, May 29, 2009 10:12:58 PM

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Dwayne awsome job.

One thing Dwayne didnt go into is while players can refine steel directly from ore not all npc's can yet. So they might have to do the coal iron thing or maybe they simply have an abundace of those two materials because of mines in thie areas.

A base Metal miner can refine 1 unit of iron and 1 unit of coal into 1 steel for free they just need to spend the time doing so.

David
It's just a game.
Varius Offline
#11 Posted : Saturday, May 30, 2009 6:31:13 PM

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Yes, Mick and Dave are right, there is another 'kind' of SU in a mine and there is another path from mSU (Ore) to Steel. I was just trying to cover the basics to keep is simple; to make sure you got the basic overall concept.

But I'll go into more detail now.

When you have a Source, be it a Mine or a Farm of a Fishing Hole or whatever, it will have a listing of Source Units and what is called 'Potential Source Units.' I note them as SU and PSU. If they are Mining SU I note them as mSU and if they are Farming SU I note them as fSU, Mining Potential Source Units are noted as mPSU... I think you can detect the pattern.

So, yeah. Your Source may have both SU and PSU.

Of what use are PSU? They have no use what so ever... until they have reached their potential and have become SU.

How does this happen? Well, some organic Sources like a Farm have PSU that will become SU over time all on their own. Others need the help of a Refiner.

A Refiner of the appropriate type can convert 2 PSU, using 1 PPP, into 2 SU. We note this ratio as PSU:PPP:SU and give it a number, in this case 2:1:2. That SU is ready to be refined into whatever a Refiner can.

There are tools that will change that ratio. An example of a tool that will do such a thing is a Wheelbarrow. A Wheelbarrow will change the PSU:PPP:SU ratio from 2:1:2 to 4:1:4. There are other tools that will change the ratios in other ways but I'll not confuse the point by listing them here.


There are three ways to go from mSU to Steel. I explained one way above: Refine the mSU directly into Steel in one step. Boom, you're done.

Another way to do it is to refine some mSU into Iron and some more mSU into Coal and then, using a Base Metals Miner, moosh them together. Poof, your done. This 'mooshing' takes no mPPP, by the way. You just hand the tags for the Iron and the Coal to Scott in logistics and 'Moosh," he hands you a tag for Steel. It takes one Iron and one Coal to make one Steel. Doing it this way is kind of inefficient. Iron has a Production Value of 4 and Coal has a Production Value of 3. 4+3=7. Doing it this way takes 7 mSU (for an Apprentice) while the one step way only takes 5 mSU. But if you happen to come into a bunch of Iron or Coal real cheap, it might work out better than the one step process.

Yes, I typed 'three ways,' but I'm not going to reveal the third way as it is proprietary to Starn and Varius. ;-)

The process of Mooshing two things together to get a third is also used in a two step process for making Bronze. But in this case, you take one Copper and one Tin and you get two Bronze. Yes, I typed 'two' on purpose. Now you see why Varius was so hot to get a cheap source of Tin from Capt. Moroni. Alas, the 'slag' that the good Captain sold Varius does not make the process cheaper than the one step process.

In my next post, I will talk about the last use for PPP.


Dwayne
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Assume no altruism.
Starn Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, June 02, 2009 12:57:36 AM
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Technicly gathered su (source units) & psu (potential source units) are not universal. When a person deposites su of a given type (farming/hunting, mining or herbal) that person's account is credited the amount deposited. Supposedly there is a stockpile of different types of su that when one withdraws some su to refine it that one recieves the material one desires to have refined. (real word example: I go to the bank and deposit 500 pennies. Shortly thereafter I withdraw 60 nickels. The pennies still sit within the bank, they did not get magically transmuted to nickels.) This is only possible because the empire has a big enough stockpile of resources to support thier guild bank system.

Some tribes do not have access to a given material. Also the natives do not have this materials stockpile to exchange materials with.

Sometimes pc's can find su that must be used for refining a particular item. For example the lumber. The lumber has a value of either 20 or 8 su and must be refined into wood only. It cannot be banked and it must be refined immediately upon turn-in to logistics (vault ingame). Why is this? The tag is yellow so the item must be turned in before the end of the event or be lost. Ingame perspective: It seems that for whatever reason the vault manager refuses to accept this resource in this form. This resource in this form will rot into unuseability if not refined before the end of the event. Out of game perspective is simply that the mechanism to effectively track su that can only refine into a single given material has been deemed to be overly clunky to use.

Technicaly psu is never deposited in the vault. It's supposed to be registered though so its gathering/depletion can be tracked. In other words the psu never left the spot it was found from until it becomes su.

Normally 2 Psu can be converted into 2 su by expending one production pool point. The converted material (now su) can then be placed into the vault. Then more production pool points must be spent to refine the su into units of a material. Doing this does not require having a refinement skill just having production pool (of the right type) to spend.

Not to well known is the ability to create 2 psu by expending one point of refining pool. It refered to as improving a site. Doing this does not require having a refinement skill just having production pool (of the right type) to spend.

Expending one point of Karma will refresh one point of production. My character refers to it as pushing his luck/rushing the process. Others refer to it as "Burning the karmic chainsaw." Scott refers to it as "Being a pain in his ass."

Here is an example comparing the refinement of steel through psu's & su's.

Fred, Ned & Jed are all apprentice base metal miners. They each wish to make two units of steel.

Fred is fairly lucky he has 10 mining su in his vault account. He spends two points from his mining pool to refine those 10 su into two units of steel.

Ned isn't so lucky, he has 11 units of psu available to him. He spends 5 mining pool to convert 10 of that psu into su. Then Ned spends 2 more mining pool to convert those 10 newly converted su into two units of steel.

Jed is just shit out of luck, he has a mining site with 1 psu in it. Jed first has to improve his site by spending 5 mining pool to generate 10 mining psu. Then Jed has to spend 5 more pool to convert those psu into su. Then Jed has to pause catch his breath and spend 2 karma points to refresh two of his production pool. Then Jed spends two mining pool to refine the 10 su into two units of steel.

To get two bars of steel
Method used........Pool Points Spent
Using Su...........2
Using Psu..........7
Improve site/psu...12


Btw a longsword takes 7 units of steel(metal) & 1 unit of wood(or bone) to make. If made by an apprentice without maintainence lasts only two events.

Being a master refiner would reduce the number of pool that would be need to be spent since less su would be needed to get the final refined product. If Fred, Ned & Jed were master miners then the numbers would change

If master refiner
To get two bars of steel
Method used.........Pool Points Spent..leftovers
Using Su.............1.................5 mining su
Using Psu............3.................one mining Su
Improve site/use psu.7.................1 mining su, 1 mPSU


Not to confuse people but there is a substep that is part of the refining materials process that while used the semantics of it allow "scraps of su" to exist to the beggining of the next event. I'll try to explain the substep of "available su" another time when I have the patience.

I normally try to ignore that substep and my refining efforts try to avoid remainders so I don't have to acknowledge it.

Mario
-Starn-

"And they say my money can't protect me!" Starn says while putting on his silver helmet & loads his bone inlayed silver hand-cannon with golden bullets...
stableyr Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:24:30 AM
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Thanks for all the responses. It's really cool to see this aspect of the game in detail.
Varius Offline
#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:32:15 PM

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Yes, the other use for PPP: generating new PSU from nothing. It's not really from 'nothing.' It is more of clearing away the useless material to find more potentially useful material.

But Mario explained that prettty well.

So, let's talk about Tools.

Generally speaking, a Tool will help in one of two ways. It will either boost your PPP or help with the Maintenance of your source.

There is a list of Tools, their recipes and the benefits they provide. Like all things crafted, they have a quality rating: Apprentice, Journeyman and Master, an Apprentice quality Tool will provide no real benefit. A Journeman quality Tool will provide some benefit and a Master quality tool will provide the best benefit. Pretty standard.

*WARNING: CHART AHEAD!*

This is a familiar chart:

1-2: +1
3-5: +2
6-9: +3
10>: +4

It is used in other parts of the Isles rules. What it tells you is the bonus to your PPP based on the overall quality of the tools you are using for that purpose. What you do is add up all of your Tools' quality ratings and then compare it to the chart. An Apprentice quality Tool is worthless, a Journeyman quality Tool is worth 1 and a Master quality Tool is worth 2.

So let's try an example to understand this better:

Let's say that Capt. Moroni has four Journeyman quality mining Tools (it really doesn't matter exactly what they are for this example, just that there are four of them and that they are all Journeyman quality). Each of these Tools is worth '1' on the chart and 4 × 1 = 4:

1-2: +1
3-5: +2
6-9: +3
10>: +4


So the total for these Tools gives Captain Moroni a +2 to his mPPP. These mPPP can be used just like any other mPPP.

Now, if these Tools were all of Master quality instead, they would be worth (4 × 2 = 8) 8 on the chart:

1-2: +1
3-5: +2
6-9: +3
10>: +4


As you can see, Master tools make all the difference.

It should be noted that you cannot share Tools with anyone else nor can you use them multiple times (even for different purposes). If, for example you have a nifty pair of Work Gloves, you can use them for either mining or farming but not for both; once you have used them for one they are used and cannot be used for the other. Now if you happen to have two pairs of Work Gloves, you can use one pair for mining and the other for farming.

There is another 'however' here, though: However, you cannot use duplicate Tools for the same purpose. That means you cannot use two pairs of Work Gloves (in the above example) for mining. Each individual Tool you use when seeking a bonus must be unique.

Tools can also be used to prevent a Source from degrading over time and I will get into that in my next post.


Dwayne
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Assume no altruism.
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